XPS 15 9550, Thunderbolt NVM firmware issue with Thunderbolt 3 to 2 adapter

peremen,

I have not heard about any Thunderbolt NVM Firmware update as of right now. 

I found another thread pointing out out-of-date Thunderbolt 3 NVM firmware here: en.community.dell.com/.../19996652

This also mentions that XPS 13 9360 has TB3 NVM firmware 18 :(

Jesse,

Is there any word on whether this will be updated in the near future? Dell is falling behind the curve with regard to keeping their Thunderbolt firmware up to date. Compatibility with devices is a high factor for customets when they decide what device to purchase.

Regards,

Johnny

So right now, my thunderbolt 3 port is basically useless as Dell cant be bothered to update its firmware? And has no plans to update it either? Great support for your existing customers!

Per the Thunderbolt software “settings” page of the respective systems (screen capture below), both the Dell XPS 15 9550 and the Intel NUC6i7KYK are using the same Thunderbolt Controller generation, “Thunderbolt 3 (1575)”, hardware.

However, compared to Intel, the firmware support that Dell is offering is behind in both the NVM firmware version (NVM 16.00 vs NVM 18.05) and the PD firmware version (PD 1.02.06 vs PD 1.07.00).

As you can also see in the below driver settings screen capture, because Dell has not updated their Thunderbolt 3 firmware, some functionality (such as “External GPUs Supported”) doesn’t exist on the XPS 15 9550, while it does on the NUC6i7KYK.

Since I have both systems, I can also tell you that the above mentioned Apple TB3-TB2 adapter works fine on my Intel NUC6i7KYK, but just gives a USB error when plugged into my Dell XPS 15 9550. 

Looking at Intel's driver download page -- 

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/26141/Thunderbolt-3-Firmware-Update-Tool -- the NVM 18 firmware was released by Intel for the NUC6i7KYK way back at 7/15/2016.

When is Dell going to release this long overdue firmware update?

Any update? It's unacceptable that Dell doesn't provide update on a slightly over 1 year old model, especially as current NVM prevent usage with TBM-15 and Dell 5K display even if it was written specs.

And XPS are supposed to have premium support... XPS 9560 using same controller got a far more recent NVM.

Dell your reputation (and renewal sales) are at stake here.

I've been pursuing this issue through a support ticket. Here is what I heard from Dell support:

Granted, I have seen discussion in places about an incompatibility between Apple TB3 *computers* and 3rd party (non-Apple) TB3 *peripherals* (which use the 1st generation of the TI USB-C chipset, TPS65982). Apparently, Apple TB3 *computers* require 3rd party TB3 *peripherals* to have 2nd generation TPS65983 chipset in order to be compatible. This issue is discussed in various places such as in the following links:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/239113-apples-new-dongle-happy-macbook-pros-not-fully-compatible-thunderbolt-3-peripherals

https://www.akitio.com/blog/articles/akitio-thunderbolt3-devices-macbook-pro

http://plugable.com/thunderbolt-3

However, I have not seen any discussion about an non-Apple TB3 *computer* not working with an Apple TB3 *peripheral* (like the Dell XPS 15 9550 not working with the Apple TB3-TB2 adapter.) Since Dell doesn't appear to have published any official technical statement on this issue, I'm not sure if the above excuse is just an incorrect answer from support/Dell engineering.

At any rate, even the TI USB-C chipset generation issue breaks the Apple TB3-TB2 adapter compatibility, that problem also doesn't explain why the Intel NUC6i7KYK has eGPU support "Yes", while the XPS 15 9550 has "No".

I wish I could see release notes for Thunderbolt 3 NVM 18 and NVM 21 to see what Dell users really aren't getting because of Dell not updating the TB3 firmware on the XPS 15 9550.

I got XPS 9550, HP ZBook G3 and HP ZBook Studio G3. I also have TB15, StarTech TB3 to TB adapter and Universal Audio Satellite TB device.

My XPS has NVM16 (1575), ZBook G3 NVM18 (1577) and ZBook Studio G3 NVM16 (1577).

I was not even able to install firmware to detect TB port at all on my XPS, just the other day when Windows 10 Editors update came out, my port actually showed up in Device Manager. Yet still, none of my TB accessories/devices is being detected by my XPS at all, while both of my HP laptops detect everything PNP. I've tried resetting my XPS 2 times and did everything from scratch twice, nothing. Also, my HP's are running Windows 7, not sure if that matters anyhow.

Pretty frustrating.. got over $1K worth of TB devices that I cannot use.

I don't think its the NVM version. As I mentioned above I have 3 laptops with different NVM version but also different hardware iterations too, its 1575 vs 1577 game and we can only HOPE that they will ever do anything about it.. perhaps no amount of firmware can even fix it. Tbh I don't even care anymore, I just WANT TO KNOW if that is the case or not so I can move on with my life.

Hi all, thanks for joining the conversation.

First, a couple things I've discovered playing with things:

1. Some of the thunderbolt software installation programs don't work (i.e. don't recognize that the controller exists to install software to) unless the TB3 host computer has a TB3 device connected to it.
   Of course, this is a catch-22 if you need the update to be able to recognize your peripheral. I got around this by connecting two Thunderbolt 3 computers together (to start the peer-to-peer 10GB networking); I think also connecting in a USB 3 device into the Thunderbolt 3 port, with the proper USB-C connector, might work as well.
   Also some the later firmware upgrades don't work without at least v16.x.x.x of the Thunderbolt Windows driver installed first. So, the pattern I'd recommend to upgrade firmware software is:
   1. plug in some basic device into the TB3 hardware
   2. try installing the v16.x.x.x Thunderbolt Windows driver, if you don't already have it.
   3. then try any firmware upgrade

   2. A useful tool I've found for helping diagnose the TB3 hardware presence is HWiNFO64. Here's what it shows when my Dell XPS 15 9550 is connected to another TB3 computer (an Asus with a DSL6340 TB3) chip:
   
   
   Here is the output when my 9550 is connected to a USB 3 device:
   
   
   As you can see, this tool is showing the Dell XPS 15 9550 TB3 hardware as a Intel DSL5110. (It also shows how Dell hung the TB3 port off a PCIe x2 port, rather than a full bandwidth PCIe x4 port, :emotion-6:.) Not sure of the relevance of the different chips but perhaps with more info and testing it might shed light on what hardware works with what (if indeed the problem isn't just a software/firmware problem).
   
   
   
   
   
   

   
   
   

I have premium support with Dell and have also been trying to get satisfaction via that channel, but basically the answer I have gotten is:

What I find astonishing about this reply is that it totally elides the notion that Thunderbolt 3 is a supposedly a STANDARD -- it's not "nice" if it works, it's people following standards and protocols. If Thunderbolt 3 doesn't work with Thunderbolt 3, that's not delivering a standard as advertised and there should be a formal technical explanation for the malfunction AND an appropriate remedy (either technical or financial).

It seems like Dell isn't coming forth with either the explanation nor the remedy. However, the hints of the hardware problem they are not reveal could perhaps be found in some of the statements I've gotten out of support while chasing this issue:

1. ...it is possible that future models may use the updated chips and firmware.
2. ...The compatibility issue with the Apple device is NOT NVM version related but related to the TI PD chip selection. BME was blocked by Apple because the TI PD chip we are using was NOT accepted by Apple for unknown reasons.
3. ...As far as the USB-C port on all Dell systems, the port only supplies approximately 15W. Each adapter is going to consume some of that power. If the end device requires more than 10W it will most likely not work....

So, perhaps the issue is with (and/or also with) the PD (power delivery) chipset and/power delivery negotiation between hosts and devices using different PD chipset generations. Similarly, it looks like my Dell XPS 15 9550 (compared to my NUC6i7KYK) uses PD firmware 1.02.06 rather than 1.07.00 -- so maybe that lag in firmware could also indicate a lag in chipset versions, which makes the XPS 15 9550 Thunderbolt 3 inferior and incompatible with other Thunderbolt 3 implementations. Indeed other Thunderbolt 3 device manufactures, such as Pluggable and AKiTiO have addressed this problem (some issue between the 1st Gen TI USB-C chipset, TPS65982 and 2nd Gen TI USB-C chipset, TPS65983):

https://www.akitio.com/blog/articles/akitio-thunderbolt3-devices-macbook-pro

http://plugable.com/thunderbolt-3

It'd be nice if Dell would likewise come clean and explain what the problem really is, and what they are going to do about it.

Correct, my XPS 9550 also has PD firmware 1.02.06 Thunderbolt (1575) where both of my HP ZBooks have PD firmware 1.07.03 Thunderbolt (1577). Not sure if that is something that firmware update can fix or not.. most likely not.

Also, this thread is a good read on this subject if anyone is interested.

communities.intel.com/.../111547

Wavetrain,

So, your 9550 TB3 port doesn't work either:

1) with the StarTech TB3 to TB adapter connected to the Universal Audio Satellite TB device daisy-chained off the TB15

or

2) with the StarTech TB3 to TB adapter connected to the Universal Audio Satellite TB device directly plugged into the 9550 TB3 port (removing the TB15 from the equation)?

... and either of these configurations work fine with your HPs?

Do you have a standalone TB3 cable that you can try direct connecting between your 9550 and one of your HPs to see if you can at least get a 10GE networking connection out of your 9550 TB3 ports (and confirm at least basic functionality?)

I also have an Asus X99 motherboard with a TB3 adapter card (ThunderboltEX 3). It has Thunderbolt 3 (1577) hardware, with PD Firmware version 1.07.00. I thought I tested it with the Apple TB3-TB2 adapter and it didn't work (which is what made me suspect NVM 16), but I'll retest it to see if we can get more data on the compatibility failure to "1575 vs. 1577" /  "PD 1.02 vs PD 1.07" / "NVM 16 vs. NVM 18" patterns.

Hey, this is all bunch of spaghetti.

Yes, every scenario works on ZBooks and no scenario works on XPS. However, its a good point there to try out networking the two with T3 cable. Unfortunately I don't have one, and didn't really had any intention getting one. Hm, if I come across one I will give it a shot, that's about the only thing I didn't try.

Also, these TB3 to TB adapters, when you think about it.. whats going on inside them? They must have their own firmware and controllers, and I would not be surprised if Apple threw something proprietary in there that doesn't work as "standard" with any device.

I initially bought Aikito adapter and it didn't work. Then I read on UAD website that they tested with StarTech and so I returned Aikito and got StarTech.. but it seems that adapter is not the problem :)

If I don't get it up and running in next few weeks.. I will have to sell all the TB3 accessories and devices that I got and be much smarter next time.